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Profound vicarious experiences

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novice - member
36 posts
I wonder if it is possible to create profound vicarious experiences in schools for either teachers or students. It seems to me that the answer is a loud no--but I'm willing to rethink it with suggestions from you all. We're too hobbled by time, place, numbers, mental models, and a governing structure to make that happen.

And I wonder what stories we need to tell to change the minds of parents, policy makers, educators, and students. It seems to me that we surely don't experiment nearly enough to develop compelling stories. It's been my experience that great stories, when they do happen, are only shared with an insignificant number of people and the stories aren't the basis for new practice.

The the discussion of "Understanding" on page 58-59 was enlightening. Yet, verbal persuasion seems to be the coin of the realm in schools. We constantly talk at colleagues and students--rarely do conversations occur. I found a nifty little piece of advice in this:

Between what I think,

What I want to say,

What I believe I’m saying,

What I say,

What you want to hear,

What you hear,

What you believe you understand,

What you want to understand,

And what you understood,

There are at least 9 possibilities for misunderstanding.

Francois Garagnon, French jurist


My last comment for now is that motivation is so important. "Finding a way to encourage others to both understand and believe in a new point of view may not be enough to propel them into action. Individuals must actually care about what they believe ..." page 61 bottom. It's been my experience that many educators don't give a rip about what they believe. We hardly ever talk to one another about it. Discussions about educational beliefs scarcely happen at all. Furthermore, the construct of "school"--the context--is one that says to educators, "I don't care what you think or what your values are. Teach the kid."
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Skip Olsen
novice - member
30 posts

I was fortunate enough today to take a "field trip" to a high school where we acted the part of the student and the teacher demonstrated the use and power of technology in the classroom. In this case he was using a Promethean Board and the Active Vote system. We had just spent the morning listening to the director of educational technology in this district explain the power of technology to engage students. Interesting, not nearly as profound and eye-opening as the "field trip."

We can create profound vicarious experiences. We just have to start asking ourselves, "In what ways could I create vicarious experiences for_______" We need to get creative. We need to start asking the question and having the dialogue.

I realized how powerful the vicarious experience was, not from reading about in the book, but by participating in one. My behavior was influenced on the issue of vicarious experiences. We can influence others too.

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novice - member
16 posts

Skip-
Great quote from Garagnon. I do think it is possible to create vicarious experiences in schools. We just have to take the time to do it. That might mean something else falls to the side or gets moved elsewhere. The story or vicarious experience is powerful. In your post you didn't think it was possible to have these experiences for teachers. I'm curious what change in behavior you are seeking. Can you share with us?
MarkLee

regular - member
62 posts
I really disagree with you skip and would invite you to come visit the school I am leaving in Keokuk. Although we do run into difficulties you described, we have philosophical conversations regularly at school and often times after hours with a drink in our hands. The teachers there are passionate and they are willing to try new things if there is some evidence it will be better for their students. I am moving to a school in Fort Dodge and although I am not certain how their culture is now, I would hope that in three to five years it will be just like it is now in Keokuk. A school's culture can change either for the worse or for the better depending on what tone is set by the leaders.  I am not talking about just the principal or other administrators, but student and teacher leaders as well.
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David Keane
novice - member
36 posts
Thanks for your reply. I'm not convinced that behavior change is possible in schools, generally. As dkeane points out, there are individual schools that are rare examples in the 14,000 school districts in the U.S. The context and structure of schools determines so much of the behavior in school:

  • Top down, hierarchal management structure;
  • About 50% of new teachers leave in first 3-5 years;
  • School board micromanagement;
  • The time schedule (6 periods, Sept to June)
  • Age segregated, egg carton, factory-like schools;
  • Not much time (if any) dedicated to staff learning and training;
  • So much more.
I remember in the Time article in December, 2006 and all the drive-by shots taken at schools, educators and the educational system: "For the past five years, the national conversation on education has focused on reading scores, math tests and closing the "achievement gap" between social classes. This is not a story about that conversation. This is a story about the big public conversation the nation is not having about education, the one that will ultimately determine not merely whether some fraction of our children get "left behind" but also whether an entire generation of kids will fail to make the grade in the global economy because they can't think their way through abstract problems, work in teams, distinguish good information from bad or speak a language other than English." (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1568480,00.html). What bothers me a great deal is the knowing-doing gap in schools and education. Schools are essentially the same as when my father went to school and educators seem powerless to do much about it except for small, individual attempts that last as long as the people with the vision--and it's gone when they burnout, move, die, or give up. There are many books--a whole industry--written by theorists, consultants, professors, economists, and foundations about how to "fix" schools and I bet there are lots of teachers, students, and other educators that have some hunches as well. Yet we go on and on, assuming tomorrow will just be an extension of tomorrow. The structure has to change.


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Skip Olsen
novice - member
36 posts
Thanks for the reply. I know that there are some healthy schools out there. I also know that many are diseased with crippling practices (inner cities) and many others where students and educators alike just "play" school. While this may not be the case in Keokuk or Fort Dodge, I'm afraid it is very much a national problem and has been for years. It's not getting any better, despite the best efforts of many good and intelligent people since A Nation At Risk was published in 1983. I wish it wasn't so.
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Skip Olsen
regular - member
62 posts

I agree with you that it is a problem. My point is with quality leaders, like you, who are looking to the future and have confidence they can influence it, vicarious  can be created. I think that the authors of the book make an excellent point in the story of the factory workers going over seas.  We need to invest in our teachers and let them know that although they may think they are doing all that can be done, there are those in other schools who are faced with the same issues and are successful. The Successful Practices Network hosts a Model Schools Conference each year and it is well worth the money to take some of your staff. The key is to take not only those who are already enthusiastic and progressive, but take a few of the less than optimistic as well.  I also advocate for sending your teachers to view another teacher in action. This can be in your own school building or it can be at another school nearby. I ussually sub for the teacher making the visit so it doesn't even cost the district anything, but just means I have a little more work to do outside of the normal school day. This practice also allows me to get back into the classroom and provides me an opportunity to show the kids and the staff that I am still a teacher, despite the fact that I am not in a classroom everyday.

We have our challenges and you are correct that many have not been met despite our knowing what they are for some time. I wonder at times how many administrators have given copies of Breaking Ranks II to board members to get them to support needed changes in our schools. I know there are some of our administrators here in our state who don't even have their own copy. Nor would they be familiar with many of the book references made by our group in recent posts.

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David Keane
regular - member
62 posts

I have been thinking about how to create Profound Vicarious Experiences for teachers. I agree with Skip about the basic structure of schools not being ideal for them to occur. I wonder if we need to turn our attention, or at least part of it to educating the legislators. They continue to try to legislate improvement, when in reality their new laws ussually tend to restrict our ability to make needed changes. I would guess that very few policy makers are involved in conversations like the ones we are having here. I also regret to point out that our teacher preparation programs are not preparing new members of our profession to teach to the future. How many professors in these programs are looking to the future and how many are providing a historical perspective of our professio? How many are even familiar with what skills will be needed in the 21st century?  I would suggest that to truly effect change in the k-12 system, some very significant changes need to be made at the university level first.

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David Keane
novice - member
24 posts
I think it is possible to create profound vicarious experiences for teachers and students within the context of school.  However, profundity is measured at the individual level.  I was profoundly moved by stories in novels and textbooks that left my classmates unmoved.  I was left cold by other stories that deeply affected some of my peers. 

It seems to me that you are thinking of a certain type of vicarious experience, used for a particular purpose--to reform education.  One of the problems is that educational reform does not have a single compelling story, it has several stories, each compelling in a certain situation or with a particular population.   We don't have a universally appealing story, or even a story that apeals to the majority of the population.  At least not yet.
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